Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

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CheriAnderson
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Posts: 6
Joined: March 2nd, 2021, 1:37 am

Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by CheriAnderson »

Hello all,

I feel like I'm fumbling around in the dark here and could REALLY use some feedback and guidance.

Background on the job:

The client recorded four video tutorials, which I then summarized on his blog. In addition, I added to and/or revised content, including the formatting. Others provide all images and graphics and the client's assistant put all of the pieces together in Word Press. I have a very distinctive writing style/voice, so the client has given me the byline for this post on his blog. Fyi - the client has never hired a writer before - so we are both trying to figure this out together.

Issue/Question:

The client has repeatedly gone back into the published blog to make changes. Given my name is on the piece, I feel compelled to follow-up by revisiting the post AGAIN - to fix new typos and make revisions, to ensure voice consistency. We have gone back and forth so many times now, that the piece is like a patchwork quilt - with this segment moved here and that heading switched there, which has really eroded the cohesiveness and flow. Is this the reality of writing for hire? Should I get used to having my work shuffled around, my words changed? Is it worth it, just to have something to add to my portfolio?

Issue/Question:

I have spent countless days and nights working on this assignment. So many drafts and revisions and rewrites - it just goes on and on. I understand that entry level copywriters can make $50 - $80 hour, but I'm not providing the graphics, nor am I inserting all of the various pieces into Word Press. I have absolutely NO idea what to charge for this project.

My time consisted of: watching 4 videos (25 minutes tot, without stopping); creating an outline, combining all four videos; creating a draft blog (based on the revised outline, where client makes a note of where screenshots and images will go); responding to feedback/comments, making revisions (multiple times); reviewing the "final" blog, once loaded with images on Word Press and making revisions; responding to more feedback/comments and making further revisions - which has been ongoing.

The client just sent me $200 as payment in full. (And I still need to go back in and clean up the latest changes.) $200 feels WAY low to me, but I honestly don't know. What is a reasonable rate to charge for this? I'm going to include the link here, just in case it proves helpful: jankeck.com/zoomguide/ (I appreciate you holding all of the info shared here in confidentiality.)

Sorry for the loooong post and I apologize if this level of detail is inappropriate here.

THANKS for reading - ANY and all thoughts and suggestions GREATLY appreciated!

:-0. Cheri
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Franklin
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Re: Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by Franklin »

CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 am Issue/Question:

The client has repeatedly gone back into the published blog to make changes. Given my name is on the piece, I feel compelled to follow-up by revisiting the post AGAIN - to fix new typos and make revisions, to ensure voice consistency. We have gone back and forth so many times now, that the piece is like a patchwork quilt - with this segment moved here and that heading switched there, which has really eroded the cohesiveness and flow. Is this the reality of writing for hire? Should I get used to having my work shuffled around, my words changed? Is it worth it, just to have something to add to my portfolio?
This guy seems like a control freak. He hired you for a job but can't let go of controlling every piece of it. Not all clients are like that. But when first starting out we're all at the mercy of the client. Once you get a good reputation, and a few steady clients, you can begin to pick and choose who you work for.
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Re: Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by SARubin »

CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 am the client has never hired a writer before - so we are both trying to figure this out together.

Is this the reality of writing for hire? Should I get used to having my work shuffled around, my words changed? Is it worth it, just to have something to add to my portfolio?
Well, at the moment this is your reality. But no, not all clients are like that.

Like Franklin mentioned, maybe he's afraid to relinquish control. Unfortunately a lot of self employed people are like that, with their mantra being "If you want something done right you have to do it yourself" or "nobody can do it as good as me, so I need to micro-manage everything".

If this is the first time he's ever hired a writer then he might not understand where the boundaries should be. And since you're still new to the game, you didn't know either. On the other hand, once you sell him the article it's really his to do whatever he wants with it.

So yes, at the moment this is your reality. But no, not all clients are like that.
CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 amIssue/Question:

I have spent countless days and nights working on this assignment. So many drafts and revisions and rewrites - it just goes on and on. I understand that entry level copywriters can make $50 - $80 hour, but I'm not providing the graphics, nor am I inserting all of the various pieces into Word Press. I have absolutely NO idea what to charge for this project.

My time consisted of: watching 4 videos (25 minutes tot, without stopping); creating an outline, combining all four videos; creating a draft blog (based on the revised outline, where client makes a note of where screenshots and images will go); responding to feedback/comments, making revisions (multiple times); reviewing the "final" blog, once loaded with images on Word Press and making revisions; responding to more feedback/comments and making further revisions - which has been ongoing.

The client just sent me $200 as payment in full. (And I still need to go back in and clean up the latest changes.) $200 feels WAY low to me, but I honestly don't know. What is a reasonable rate to charge for this?

It can be tough when we're first starting out, Cheri, because we want to please the client so badly that we often sacrifice our sanity for acceptance. (on the other hand, I don't think I've ever met a creative person who wasn't a little insane to begin with :lol: )

Dealing with this type of client can be frustrating, but it can also be a good learning experience. With your next client you can tell them you want to be absolutely certain they're satisfied with the work, and that's why you proudly offer up to 3 revisions at no extra charge! (this keeps the revisions down to no more than 3, while still allowing the client to feel like they're in control)

And you also retain the right to use the article in your personal portfolio. This way you can keep a copy of your best work to show future clients. (even if this client changes stuff around beyond recognition).


As far as this client goes... If you plan on working with him again you may want to have a heart-to-heart chat with him.

Ask him if he likes the work you're doing so far, and what his vision is for his business. Then explain how his success equals your success, and that's why you consider yourself as a team-mate working towards the same goal. The goal is to make his website the go to place for lonely people who want to learn how to connect with others on a meaningful level. (I just pulled that idea after visiting his website and reading his "about us" page)

Allowing him to feel like you understand him and his vision, and allowing him to feel important, might get him to loosen the reigns a bit. And if it doesn't, then unfortunately sometimes we need to fire a client who's being unreasonable. And only you can decide if it's worth it for you to continue working with him.


Anyway Cheri, I hope somewhere in my ramblings there's a nugget or two you can adapt to your situation.

Best of luck to you,
Steve
A good marketer knows how to think like a marketer - A great marketer learns how to think like the customer...
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CheriAnderson
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Re: Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by CheriAnderson »

THANKS for your response, Franklin. It's always nice to commiserate! Yes, it's nice to remember that, at some point, I will be able to pick and choose how I spend my time. May that day arrive SOON! :-)


Franklin wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 9:51 am
CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 am Issue/Question:

The client has repeatedly gone back into the published blog to make changes. Given my name is on the piece, I feel compelled to follow-up by revisiting the post AGAIN - to fix new typos and make revisions, to ensure voice consistency. We have gone back and forth so many times now, that the piece is like a patchwork quilt - with this segment moved here and that heading switched there, which has really eroded the cohesiveness and flow. Is this the reality of writing for hire? Should I get used to having my work shuffled around, my words changed? Is it worth it, just to have something to add to my portfolio?
This guy seems like a control freak. He hired you for a job but can't let go of controlling every piece of it. Not all clients are like that. But when first starting out we're all at the mercy of the client. Once you get a good reputation, and a few steady clients, you can begin to pick and choose who you work for.
CheriAnderson
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Posts: 6
Joined: March 2nd, 2021, 1:37 am

Re: Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by CheriAnderson »

THANKS for your reply, Steve! (and apologies for the delay in responding - I guess I didn't have my notifications turned on, doh!)

It's nice to be reminded that "no, not all clients will be like this" - pheeeeew.

Yes, unfortunately, it feels like I AM sacrificing my sanity (what little I may have!) for acceptance and approval - and a J.O.B.! Sigh.

Yes, it is a VERY good learning experience, if I can remember to keep breathing and take brisk walks, when necessary. I like how you phrased your "3 revisions" suggestion - I may just use that!

I'm super impressed that you visited the client's website - above and beyond the call o' duty! Wow - THANKS! We just had a meeting with his two other team members and it was quite lovely - all about preferred work styles. It was interesting, in a completely, hmmmm, not really helpful way, doh! So, his heart is in the right place, I just think our communication styles don't sync. At all.

Today was another incredibly frustrating day of endless back and forth communications, trying to clarify the parameters and costs of a new assignment and missing the mark, over and over again. (Ironically, it doesn't really work any better in-person.) So, we'll see - maybe it just isn't worth it in the end.

I harvested many a nugget from your expert ramblings, so THANK YOU!

I hope your week is going well, Steve. Thanks for leading this forum and taking such kind, generous care of it's visitors. I appreciate YOU!

:-) Cheri
SARubin wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 7:30 pm
CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 am the client has never hired a writer before - so we are both trying to figure this out together.

Is this the reality of writing for hire? Should I get used to having my work shuffled around, my words changed? Is it worth it, just to have something to add to my portfolio?
Well, at the moment this is your reality. But no, not all clients are like that.

Like Franklin mentioned, maybe he's afraid to relinquish control. Unfortunately a lot of self employed people are like that, with their mantra being "If you want something done right you have to do it yourself" or "nobody can do it as good as me, so I need to micro-manage everything".

If this is the first time he's ever hired a writer then he might not understand where the boundaries should be. And since you're still new to the game, you didn't know either. On the other hand, once you sell him the article it's really his to do whatever he wants with it.

So yes, at the moment this is your reality. But no, not all clients are like that.
CheriAnderson wrote: March 2nd, 2021, 4:03 amIssue/Question:

I have spent countless days and nights working on this assignment. So many drafts and revisions and rewrites - it just goes on and on. I understand that entry level copywriters can make $50 - $80 hour, but I'm not providing the graphics, nor am I inserting all of the various pieces into Word Press. I have absolutely NO idea what to charge for this project.

My time consisted of: watching 4 videos (25 minutes tot, without stopping); creating an outline, combining all four videos; creating a draft blog (based on the revised outline, where client makes a note of where screenshots and images will go); responding to feedback/comments, making revisions (multiple times); reviewing the "final" blog, once loaded with images on Word Press and making revisions; responding to more feedback/comments and making further revisions - which has been ongoing.

The client just sent me $200 as payment in full. (And I still need to go back in and clean up the latest changes.) $200 feels WAY low to me, but I honestly don't know. What is a reasonable rate to charge for this?

It can be tough when we're first starting out, Cheri, because we want to please the client so badly that we often sacrifice our sanity for acceptance. (on the other hand, I don't think I've ever met a creative person who wasn't a little insane to begin with :lol: )

Dealing with this type of client can be frustrating, but it can also be a good learning experience. With your next client you can tell them you want to be absolutely certain they're satisfied with the work, and that's why you proudly offer up to 3 revisions at no extra charge! (this keeps the revisions down to no more than 3, while still allowing the client to feel like they're in control)

And you also retain the right to use the article in your personal portfolio. This way you can keep a copy of your best work to show future clients. (even if this client changes stuff around beyond recognition).


As far as this client goes... If you plan on working with him again you may want to have a heart-to-heart chat with him.

Ask him if he likes the work you're doing so far, and what his vision is for his business. Then explain how his success equals your success, and that's why you consider yourself as a team-mate working towards the same goal. The goal is to make his website the go to place for lonely people who want to learn how to connect with others on a meaningful level. (I just pulled that idea after visiting his website and reading his "about us" page)

Allowing him to feel like you understand him and his vision, and allowing him to feel important, might get him to loosen the reigns a bit. And if it doesn't, then unfortunately sometimes we need to fire a client who's being unreasonable. And only you can decide if it's worth it for you to continue working with him.


Anyway Cheri, I hope somewhere in my ramblings there's a nugget or two you can adapt to your situation.

Best of luck to you,
Steve
TheWauchulin
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Posts: 16
Joined: March 16th, 2021, 11:51 pm

Re: Negotiating Boundaries & Payment

Post by TheWauchulin »

Hi Cheri,

It's tough starting off.
It's tough working with a client who's never hired a freelance writer.
It's tough getting revision after revision after revision.
It's tough cleaning up after non-writers, who think they know more.
It's tough when a writer has to chase their money.
It's tough when the client wants to renegotiate their contract AFTER the work is complete. :evil:

If there is a glimmer of hope, know this...

...now you know what to look for moving forward.

It's what every business owner goes through in the beginning.

Eventually, you'll build your own Red Flag list of "I'm Not Doing Business With This Type of Client. EVER!!!"

I've been doing this so long that I recently turned down a highly recognized advertising and marketing agency because they emailed me someone else's NDA and Contract Documents. :shock: That's Red Flag #2.

Red Flag #1? The client starts the conversation with, "So, how much...?"
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